-- "Hal removed our parenting shackles — his approach has truly liberated us, giving us back not just our 'cool', but our joy." Sheri Lynch, The Bob & Sheri Show "We received more hits on our web site than any other guest since the site has been up. The book title and topic really connect with parents." Caroline Kruse, Jacquie and Caroline, Family Matters Radio

ScreamFree Radio - News-Talk AM750 WSB

Complete Transcript, April 20, 2008

[Helping you to realize that all your relationships can be ScreamFree, this is ScreamFree Radio with relationship expert, Hal Runkel, on NewsTalk AM750 WSB. Call now and talk to Hal at (404) 872-0750 or toll-free at (800) WSB TALK.]

Hal: Helping the world calm down and grow up one relationship at a time, this is your host, Hal Runkel, and your listening to ScreamFree Radio. And I am here to help bring a new-found calm into your stress-filled lives and help you create the relationships you've always wanted. Divorce is more costly than ever. Released a couple weeks ago, a new study, that was actually launched by a Georgia State University economist, divorce and single parenting is now costing this country $112 billion a year. This is the first of its kind this study and the hopes are that this study will prompt law-makers to invest more money in programs at strengthening marriages and there's a lot of controversy about will that actually happen, does marital education actually work? But we are going to first just talk about the ramifications of this study and other studies, including a cover-story on Newsweek that came out last week about the effects of divorce. So many of you listening, either were the child of a divorce or you have gone through a divorce yourselves and you know first-hand the pain a divorce can reek upon a family. But now we are learning how much pain it reeks upon a society. There have been previous attempts to calculate the cost of divorce in America, but the sponsors of this news study said their's the first to gage a broader cost of family fragmentation in their words, which is both divorce and unwed child bearing. And according to the president, the Institute of American Values, one of the sponsors of the study, the study documents for the first time that divorce and unwed child bearing, besides being bad for children, are costing tax-payers tons of money. The calculations were based on the assumption that households headed by a single filament female have relatively very high poverty rates, leaving the higher spending on welfare, health-care, criminal justice and education for those raised in disadvantage homes. $112 billion estimate includes the cost of federal, state, and local government programs, and lost tax revenue at all level of government. Here's the irony, as I see it, is so often money is seen as a cause of divorce. And the statistics don't actually say that that's true, but money is often cited as, you know what, we couldn't get along because of money struggles; we had different philosophies about what we, about the emphases focused on where we should put our money, and that's kind of led to irreconcilable differences thing that we have, that we cannot stay together any longer, so we need to get divorced. But what this study is saying is now part of the reason why our economy is struggling, part of the reason why we're struggling with finances is because of divorce itself, makes for a wonderful, wonderful cycle that feeds on itself. The difficulty with divorce is not just about money, however. Divorce, and I've wanted to say this on air, I've done hundreds of radio interviews, but I've never said this, in one word divorce sucks. It sucks for those who've grown up with it. It is terrible 4 those who grow up with this sense that something is ultimately always just going to fail. That's one of the hallmarks of children and adults in divorce. They have this sense of instability around them. And news studies are coming out and that's what this amazing article in Newsweek is pointing out, news studies are pointing out of how much it is leading to the next generations getting divorced. We've all seen that, but now we're getting hard data about that. Each year about 1 million children watch their parents split, triple the numbers in the 1950's. These children are twice as likely as their peers to get divorced themselves and far more likely to have mental health problems. And while divorce rates have actually been dropping off, off from their 1981 peek of about 5.6 couples or people per one thousand in 1981, now it's down to 3.6, but sociologists are now declaring a marriage gap in which the well educated and better paid are staying married, while the poor are still getting divorced. For instance, people with college degrees are half as likely to be divorced or separated as their less educated peers. And of course the younger you marry the more likely you are to get divorced. All of this is troubling. This is troubling because what we're seeing are lasting effects, lasting effects that go on beyond just those painful two years. Some studies show the best of us if we go through a divorce, if we end up rupturing our marriage, the best of us take two years to get back to our previous functioning levels mental health-wise and emotional-wise. But beyond that now we are beginning to see that this is a generational legacy that is created. We're beginning to see the financial difficulty that is created in each year. Divorce is a huge problem. And most of you don't know, most of us don't know is that 50% of marriages end in divorce, but also that the divorce rate in this country is the highest in the world. The highest in the world. So why have we experienced such a huge increase in divorce in the last 30 years? Because I remember, I remember when the morning after my parents announced to us that they were splitting up, I was about 11, so this would have been, help me Jenny, my wife is actually one of the producers on the show, and she would know, 1981 I would have been about 9. Maybe 9 or 10 and I remember I was in elementary school, and I lived close enough that I could walk. And I walked with a couple of guy friends and a couple of girls that we were friends with and we all walked together and they noticed that something was wrong with me. And they were all saying what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong, and I remember just exploding with this horrified, embarrassed, just leave me alone, my parents are splitting up explosion. And I remember this sense of shame about it. It's incredible embarrassment because back then it was far more taboo than it is now. And that's not too long ago, that was 1981 where we were saying was the peek of American divorces. So it was happening but it was still so shameful. But now I remember this happened to our daughter a couple of years ago, where she was in third grade and 3 of her classmates' parents went through a divorce in that one year. It seems far more common, but even more than that it seems that there's not that stigma attached to it like there was, but it still hurts. It hurts, and it hurts for a long time. One of the interesting things about some recent studies, other studies on the legacy of divorce is that initially these researchers did a study on the unexpected legacy of divorce, they thought that the most stressful time for children would come right after the divorce occurred but that's not what they found. In following these folks there's a longitudinal study that lasted about 20 years and following these folks they found that post divorce difficulties became most severe when the children of divorced parents reached adulthood, as their search for lasting commitment moves to center-stage. They're terrified because they're convinced they're going to fail, said one of the authors of the study. They don't know how to choose. They make bad choices. They divorce a lot. It breaks their hearts. They don't take marriage lightly, but they don't know how to do it. And many of the study participants say that seriously searching for a life partner felt like going through their parents divorce all over again. Parenting is incredibly difficult it is unbelievably more difficult in a divorce situation. But what we're going to talk about this hour is that part of the mistakes that lead to divorce are that we have begun to put a shift. Because this divorce rate is so high, because it has now become so much easier ever since 1979, when Ronald Reagan, as then the Governor of California, said that we no longer had to have fault declared in divorces. That was the first state to do that was in California. Once that happened, it became so much easier to get a divorce and now that that's happened, what it's led to is divorce is now an option, but we cannot have leaving our kids be an option. That's an obligatory relationship. So what this shift has done has now the most important relationship for most of us, the most important relationship in our lives is no longer our marriages. The most important relationship in our lives is that we have with our children. Because I can get divorced and that's a relationship choice, but this relationship with my children is not a relationship of choice. I have to continue to be a parent. So we put so much importance on that, and that ironically, in my opinion, has led to more marital problems. I'm going to explain that when we come back. You are listening to NewsTalk am750WSB. (404) 872-0750 or 1-800-WSBTALK, that's 1-800-972-8255. You are listening to NewsTalk am750, this is ScreamFree radio with your host Hal Runkel.

[It's a relationship revolution you don't want to miss. You're listening to ScreamFree Radio with Hal Runkel on NewsTalk 750WSB]

Hal: (Pat Benatar's "Love is a Battlefield" playing in background) Divorce is more costly than ever, yes Pat, it is still a battlefield. ScreamFree Radio, we're here to bring a new-found calm into your stress-filled life, help you create the relationships you've always wanted, including the marriage you've always wanted. Marriage is incredibly difficult. That's what all these divorce statistics really show, is that marriage is just stinking hard. And few of us know it. It's impossible to know it fully. It's amazing how, one of the stats that always amazes me, and it amazes folks when they hear it, is how ineffective premarital counseling is. It¹s remarkable how it has very little effect on divorce rates. Because in truth the only thing that can prepare you for marriage, is what?

Jenny: Marriage.

Hal: Marriage, exactly. Nothing can prepare us for that first year, even if they've lived together. Statistics show that actually if you live together before you're married, it actually increases the chances that you'll get divorced. And the difficulty is usually that stat is read from a particular agenda. A moralistic agenda that's trying to get people to not live together. Instead, I don't come at it from that perspective at all, you're saying if you want to give yourself the best chance to have the life-long commitment that I believe you really want then it would behoove you to pay attention to statistics. And stats say living together actually leads to higher divorce rates, but the divorce rates are high even if you don't. Because again marriage is hard. Being in the ScreamFree perspective says you can fight against the idea that marriage is difficult. You can bump against it and this whole time have this expectation that marriage is supposed to be easier than it is. I never thought it would be this hard. This is not what I signed up for. Especially now that kids have come along, it's so easy, so easy to have this sense that everything you expected life to be like with your spouse is not what is actually happening and again, like we said before the break, marriage is a relationship of choice. Which means you can say I don't just as well as you can say I do, so why do people say I do? There's lots of reasons.

Jenny: That's a great question. I was doing some reading over the weekend and I found this really cool blog from the UK and have you heard, we've talked about this a little bit in the office this week, the UK is having a tremendous amount of..

Hal: The lowest divorce, I mean they have the lowest marriage rate of the major...

Jenny: In 150 years.

Hal: And among the major civilized countries. Fewer people are actually getting married.

Jenny: Exactly and they're trying to speculate why, but it's started this kind of national debate over there. And I was reading this blog by these two women who are teaming up together to write a book and it's called When Your Marriage is Falling Apart: Should You Stay or Should You Go? And it's two different perspectives and it's real interesting because it's written by two women that have struggled in their marriages. One of them, on the brink of divorce, decided to stay together and writes about that and they're two friends. And the other one has gone through two divorces already and they're the same age. And you were just talking about we think it should be easy, we think it should be almost like a fairy tail. All the sitcoms that we see everything gets resolved quickly and I'm not one to blame culture for everything, but I thought this was interesting what she said. I'm going to read this to you real quick.

Hal: Okay.

Jenny: She says, "I have started to remind myself" and by the way this is the one who stayed. "I have started to remind myself that I am not owed a happy husband or an easy marriage. It does all need to be worked at, but that doesn't mean it's particularly hard. For me it means thinking before verbally lashing out. It means if my husband's grumpy and cross, maybe he needs some love and understanding as well." I don't know, I like that, I like that it's not necessarily always going to be wine and roses, although those are nice, by the way.

Hal: Yes sure, but actually what I've come to believe is not only is marriage going to be difficult, I think it is supposed to be. I think your marriage is supposed to be as difficult as it is right now.

Jenny: My particular marriage?

Hal: Yes, the one that you¹re enjoying with me is supposed to be as difficult as it is right now. Here's why, you have been a participant along the way in every relationship pattern that you are now experiencing with your spouse. You have been a participant the entire way.

Jenny: Yes

Hal: Yes, you have been ready right there with you. And if you have been a participant the entire way then that means that you helped create the very patterns that you end up complaining about. Not necessarily you, Jenny, but you've created the patterns that you end up complaining about and one of the truths that we all know in life is it¹s far, far easier to complain than it is to change. Because what that means is if I've been involved in creating the patterns then I have to return the favors to myself if I actually want to change anything about it. The reason why I believe what this leads us to say is that your marriage is supposed to be this difficult because it is forcing you to ask tough questions of yourself. I firmly believe, I firmly believe along with Dr. David Shanarce, one of my gurus in family therapy. He says it's not about working on your marriage, it's about letting your marriage work on you. Marriage, your marriage is trying to do a number on you right now, and you say of course, you're not telling me anything new. It's trying to do a number on you, asking yourself very, very difficult questions. The fights that you get in with your spouse, ask yourself very difficult questions about what you hold on to the most, about what you value the most, about what you are willing to go toe to toe about. Marriage like no other relationship asks us those difficult questions. We want to hear from you. We want to hear what is difficult about your marriage. What are you struggling with? When are you most tempted to throw in the towel. (404) 872-0750 or 1-800-WSBTALK, that's 1-800-972-8255. You're listening to NewsTalk am750WSB.

[Now back to ScreamFree Radio with New York Times Best Selling Author and creator of the ScreamFree relationship revolution, Hal Runkel on NewsTalk am750WSB]

Hal: Bringing a new-found calm into your stress-filled life and helping you create the relationships you've always wanted, this is ScreamFree Radio and we are talking about divorce and marriage. Marriage is not just difficult, it is supposed to be difficult and because of that we are going to talk to Joe, who is on the fence about getting a divorce. Joe, welcome to the program.

Joe: Thank you.

Hal: So, on the fence about getting divorced? Tell me what's going on.

Joe: Well, my wife filed for divorce about a year and half ago and we've just been in kind of limbo land. At first she really wanted to make it happen and I didn't and I found out that..

Hal: Sue wanted to make the divorce happen and you did not?

Joe: Correct, she wanted out and I didn't and come to find out that the state we live in is a no fault state. And she can go and get divorced and I don't even have to say I want to get divorced.

Hal: You don't have a choice in the matter. Yup, you don't have a choice in the matter.

Joe: Well it took both of us to get married, but it only takes one for us to get divorced.

Hal: Well one person to say I don't. Right.

Joe: What's that?

Hal: It takes both to say I do, but only takes one person to say I don't.

Joe: Exactly and that was strange to me, but..

Hal: But, so who's on the fence? You guys have not finalized the divorce?

Joe: Have not, no. I moved out. We went through mediation, about 6, almost June of last year and I moved out in August and I've been out since and we've been kind of working our lives as if we are divorced. And I'm thinking of finally finalizing it because it does it only takes one person and I just want to get on with my life.

Hal: Right, what stops you?

Joe: The kids.

Hal: How many?

Joe: Two. (inaudible)

Hal: Say that again, you broke up.

Joe: Two kids.

Hal: Two kids and how old are they?

Joe: 4 and 8.

Hal: And what's the worst part in your mind about actually finalizing this divorce? What's the worst part for them?

Joe: The worst part for me is that my kids won't ever remember their mother and father being together. I mean how many of us actually remember when we were 4 years old and that, that kills me every time. But then I don't want to become an empty nester. There is a lot that I've learned these last 2 years, year and a half that it's a shame that we would stop what we've learned in the past year and a half about communicating and about how we don't. How do you live in the same house and you don't communicate with one another.

Hal: That's one of the lies that I see about most marital advice, that it all comes down to communication. See the truth is you guys may not be saying any words to each other, but you're communicating all the time.

Joe: Correct.

Hal: You cannot not communicate. So you being silent with one another is communicating plenty. It's communicating cold feelings towards one another and inability or unwillingness to actually address what's going on between the two of you, so it's easier just to not say any words.

Joe: You're right.

Hal: Even though you know what she's communicating.

Joe: This is true.

Hal: Which is what? That she doesn't love you?

Joe: It took me the longest time to believe that. And that's what she said, but she's been saying things differently lately.

Hal: Here's the question, do you want... Would you like it, in an ideal world Joe, for you guys to stay married and have a wonderful life together with your kids.

Joe: That would be.. Yeah.

Hal: So you still want that?

Joe: That is a tough question. What she's put me through the past year and a half, two years because I'm the one who's wanted to go get counseling, I'm the one who's wanted to work on the marriage. She hasn't, she doesn't open up and talk to people. And now she's thinking about it but,

Hal: So what happens when you authentically declare that this is what I want. That what I want is for this marriage to work. What I want is for us to enjoy life together with our kids no matter how hard it is between us. What happens when you do that?

Joe: Well, it's one sided, right? Just like in the divorce I can say I don't want to get divorced because if she does and that's all it takes and she can get divorced.

Hal: Sure, sure. Thank you for the call Joe. I hope you can find some clarity for yourself, but the difficulty is that like a lot of folks, they have this idea that it takes two to make a marriage work. Well, as long as you're sitting back and waiting for the other person to come along side you, as long as your waiting for that person to agree with you then you're right it takes two to make it work. The difficulty though is the two people don't do anything together ever. We didn't say we do, we said I do. Didn't say as long as you do, I do even if you don't. So marriage is about integrity. You are not just committing yourself to the other person, you're committing yourself to your vow. And even if the other person then is on the fence and the other person says I'm not sure if I love you. Whether or not you respond the same way is up to you, regardless of what this person has put you through, that's a difficult, difficult position. I'm not saying don't get divorced, but I am saying getting divorced by blaming the other person is not an actual move of integrity. Because I said I do to this woman I'm looking at right across from here. Now she has cheated on me multiple times, right?

Jenny: 3..

Hal: But I continue to say I do, right. But even if she had, that's her saying I don't. Again I did not say that I do as long as you do.

Jenny: Well, I think you asked him that question because, I was listening and really it was this pregnant pause. Would that be something that you wanted and I think that's the question that he has to answer himself and once you do answer that question you have to be so vulnerable to go to someone who you're not sure wants you, but still maintain that you want them. I don't know.

Hal: But I don't think that vulnerability ever goes away in marriage. If you really want to have a great marriage, then you're going to willingly step into that vulnerability again and again and again. What one of the chapters in the upcoming ScreamFree marriage book that you and I are trying to write together.

Jenny: Oh good, please tell me.

Hal: Yes, one of the chapters is intimacy always begins with an "i." Meaning it's not hey we are gonna go, can we do this or do you wanna do this?

Jenny: Right.

Hal: Intimacy always begins with one person willing to put themselves out there and say this is what I want or this is what I'm concerned about. An act of intimacy is not just one that ends up in the bedroom. Sometimes it's one that ends up in separate bedrooms because we really need to deal with this. Sometimes it's I don't like you right now. And I don't like that I don't like you but I have to be honest.

Jenny: Okay, how is that selfish. I'm hearing.. I mean I agree with you, but just to push back a little bit how does that not come across as okay I want this in my marriage, I want that in my marriage. if you don't too bad. In other words, how does that lead to more intimacy rather than less?

Hal: Right, because it's combined with not this much that if you don't want it then too bad, it's combined with this much I'm not going anywhere, regardless how you respond to me, I'm not going anywhere.

Jenny: But not in a...you know.

Hal: No it's this sense of two messages. One, I'm not going anywhere, but two, I don't like how things are right now and I would like them to be different. I would like them to be better. Meaning, I want more of something we're experiencing or I want less of something we're experiencing. But either way, I at least want you to know exactly how I feel.

Jenny: Okay, I just heard the difference. It's not an either attack or request of that person.

Hal: I;m not asking you to do anything differently.

Jenny: So it's in a way it's more vulnerable, but allows for that person who you're asking to make a choice and not feel attacked or..

Hal: Right. Just think of it in the act of say what is usually associated with intimacy, the act of uniting in the bedroom, right? So, me stepping forward and saying I want you.

Jenny: And that's when I say no.

Hal: Of course.

Jenny: Okay.

Hal: And look at my body. But for me to step forward and say I want you says regardless of whether or not you come back and say you want me as well, I just want you to know this is how I feel. And I'm going to be authentic with myself and pursue that with you. But here's the beauty of it, is then you can make an authentic choice, so I know if you actually say yes, once a year, I know that you want to. And you're not feeling obligated to, you don't think you have to because that's the wife duty or any of that. I put myself out there and if I put myself in that vulnerable position that means I can be hurt by that. By you saying you know what I don't really want that right now.

Jenny: Right.

Hal: It can also then mean if you say yes, then you've got the possibility for something that I believe is the beauty of a ScreamFree marriage and that's SreamFilled sex. So, we want to hear from some more of you to talk about your marriage issues. (404) 872-0750 What do you want out of marriage? What are you looking for? What are you afraid to pursue with your spouse or what have you always wanted to tell them and you're afraid to actually confess to them. Not necessarily that you did harm behind their back, but things that you have felt about that your marriage with them that have become the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Jenny: That would be definitely something to keep out of the bedroom.

Hal: The bedroom? Yes. (404) 872-0750, 1-800-WSBTALK, that's 1-800-972-8255. And we've got Carol in Stone Mountain. Carol, welcome to the program. (Long Pause) Carol's now gone from the program. She went to pursue the 800 pound gorilla with her husband. And we're gonna be back in just a few moments. You're listening to NewsTalk am750WSB.

[He's calming the world, one relationship at a time. Now back to ScreamFree Radio with Hal Runkel on NewsTalk 750WSB.]

Hal: Bringing calm into your stress-filled life and helping you create the relationships you've always wanted, especially your marriage. We've been talking about divorce and marriage and I want your marriage to work. I want it for many, many reasons. It is good for society as we've talked about the statistics, it's good for your children, and ultimately I believe it is good for you. But none of that takes away the difficulties of marriage. Carol, who says that she's bored with her marriage. Carol, I'm sure you are echoing the sentiments of lots of folk listening. You're on the program.

Carol: Yes.

Hal: Hi Carol, how are you?

Carol: Fine, just fine.

Hal: Tell me what's the most boring part of your marriage?

Carol: I think just the daily humdrum of it all. I mean we've got three great kids. They take a lot of time and issues. And we've tried the all self-help books and we try to go out every couple of weeks, just the two of us. Yeah right, and we get a little bit of time because our kids go to bed by 8 o'clock every night, so we get a little time together. But I think we're just bored and this morning we both actually talked about it and he got up and burped. And I was like I'm so tired of you burping when you get up every morning. And it's just the humdrum of it all.

Hal: The regular morning burp.

Carol: Yeah exactly. I'm just so bored with your burps every morning.

Hal: Well, it's fantastic that you guys actually talked about it. Tell me how long you've been married.

Carol: 13 years.

Hal: 13 years, okay. When did it start to get boring?

Carol: About two years ago, probably.

Hal: And your children, how old?

Carol: They're 3, 6, and 8.

Hal: 3, 6, and 8. You know what, I've been toying with this idea that I think everyone really wants a hot marriage. A marriage that gets them excited.

Carol: That's true.

Hal: A marriage that helps take them away from the humdrum regularity of life.

Carol: Right.

Hal: And boredom actually is a major, major reason that a lot of couples enter into marital difficulties.

Carol: Right.

Hal: So, tell me this what's one thing you would like to do in your marriage that you're afraid to pursue?

Carol: Wow..

Hal: That would make it less boring.

Carol: Maybe to have more fun.

Hal: To have more fun. Okay tell me this, when's the last time you guys took a vacation together?

Carol: Well we've never taken a vacation just the two of us.

Hal: Bingo. Here's what I absolutely believe. There is no such thing as a family vacation.

Carol: (Laughs) No it's a nightmare vacation.

Hal: Exactly. Family vacation is an oxymoron. Because every one of us takes vacation, especially you guys with three kids, and the second you get back you say man I need a vacation from that vacation, right?

Carol: Oh my yes.

Hal: No, those aren't vacations. Those are family trips, which are good. I'm glad you take them, but a vacation is me and my wife on a beach with no kids.

Carol: That's true.

Hal: That is a vacation and when we just have it on the schedule, months away. We're celebrating our 15th anniversary this year and we're planning our trip for later in the fall, and just having it on the schedule means that now I've taken a picture from the place where we're going and that's my background on the computer.

Carol: Okay, I get that. Excitement about it's going to happen.

Hal: Right, so what's it gonna take?

Carol: A babysitter?

Hal: Absolutely. It's gonna take a lot of planning. So here's the challenge for you. You ready Carol?

Carol: Okay.

Hal: The challenge for you is you can wait until the right time to bring it up to your husband and then hope he agrees with you. And then try to plan it together. Or you can begin to put together, I mean put down on paper, just by yourself some places you would like to go with him.

Carol: Okay.

Hal: Alright, and here's a suggestion. Put them on separate slips of paper and I want you to just, tonight, take one slip with one place you would like to go and put I would like to go to Tahiti or wherever with you and put it on his pillow, right so that he sees it before he lays his head down. And then you tonight wait and see what happens.

Carol: (Laughs) Okay.

Hal: Can you do it?

Carol: Yeah that sounds like fun actually.

Hal: Exactly. Exactly. I'm thrilled for you and keep calling back and we'll talk and we'll give you more and more suggestions. But everybody in Atlanta's gonna want to hear where you guys end up going.

Carol: I'll definitely keep..

Hal: Awesome, thanks Carol.

Carol: Alright, thanks. Bye bye.

Hal: Man, there are so many little things that we forget about. Things that initially attracted to us to the other person and things we want to share with the other person, but it is so easy to focus our entire lives around our kids. It's all about the kids. It's one of the hallmarks of my books. ScreamFree parenting is everything all about the kids. And so we orbit our entire lives around the kids saying you mean the whole world to me. Yikes. I am not mature enough to be anybody's whole world, but certainly not when I was 5 or when I was 15. What we are saying is you're my whole world so I'm going to get my excitement and everything from you. Which means you better perform well. You better do well. You better be cute. I need all that from you. But here's the truth, I cannot orbit my whole life around my kids without giving them the impression that the world revolves around them. And then I have the nerve to call them self-centered when they act that way. But I helped create that and what else what Carol just let us know is what we also help create a boring, lifeless marriage. Because now it's all about the kids. It's all about the kids. But one of the best things we can give to our kids is a fantastic marriage between the two of us. What that communicates to our kids is so valuable. It gives them a foundation to launch from. It shows them what relationships, what great adult relationships can look like. That's the beauty of paying good attention, more attention to your marriage and even your relationship with your kids, it's beneficial for everyone. And as Carol just showed us, it's a lot of fun in the process. You're listening to ScreamFree Radio on NewsTalk am750WSB. (404) 872-0750, 1-800-WSBTALK, that's 1-800-972-8255. Let us know the struggles you have with you marriage, the questions you have and what you would love to see happen with it. NewsTalk am750.

[Helping you to realize that all your relationships can be ScreamFree. This is ScreamFree Radio with relationship expert, Hal Runkel on NewsTalk 750WSB. Call now and talk to Hal at (404) 872-0750 or toll free at 1-800-WSBTALK]

Hal: Welcome back. ScreamFree Radio, where we want to bring a new-found calm into your stress-filled life and help you create the relationships you've always wanted. Particularly a marriage you've always wanted. Divorce, according to a recent study is more costly to all of us than ever. Recent study sponsored by 4 different groups, led by a Georgia State Professor, shows that divorce now costs tax-payers in this country $112 billion a year. Which comes from lost tax revenue, which comes from increased welfare costs to support single parent families, health-care costs. $112 billion a year, just adding to the fragility of our economic structure and our social structures. It's leading to a gap, a large gap between those that stay married and those that get divorced. One of the fascinating things is we so often complain about money in our marriages, differences we have, the stress especially and these days when we're seeing that, good lord, City Group just fired 9,000 because they lost something like $7 billion in one quarter. And that just causes so much more stress and it all just feeds off one another. The stock market is just this incredibly, emotionally reactive laboratory where everybody gets reactive against everybody else because then we respond to it and it all just feeds this anxiety. This incredible societal anxiety that then bleeds into our relationships, particularly our marriages. And so we begin to site money concerns as the reason why, you know what, we've got these irreconcilable differences because we're trying to save money and he keeps spending it or she keeps spending it or we don't have the same values about this stuff and the money stuff is just exposing how we really, really are far two different people and we need to get divorced. One thing I used to always tell couples, that would come in my office who were seeking divorce, one thing I would always tell them is look yes I'm expensive, but I'm a lot cheaper than divorce. Average cost for divorce between 5 and 35 thousand dollars a person just in legal fees and then you think about it if you got money problems struggling to support one household just wait until you're trying to support two. It is incredible how much divorce causes increased money difficulties for the couple, but now as this study's shown for all of us. So what to do? This study is trying to say that we need marriage education programs. I obviously offer marriage education programs as part of what I do. It's part of what we do at the ScreamFree institute and on ScreamFree.com is offer relationship training programs for you, but the question is is that going to fix it? Is that going to reverse the trend? Ultimately it won't. Ultimately the only thing that will reverse the trend is one person making a singular decision to stand by their I do. Every revolution in history has always begun not with huge groups of people suddenly changing their ways as one. No, every revolution in history, every change in society that's actually lasting and been official has always begun with one person saying one sentence and it's almost the same sentence, regardless of the language of the spoken or the revolution that was started. It's always almost the same sentence. I'm not sure what you're going to do, but this is what I'm going to do. That sentence starts revolutions. It's saying to your spouse I'm not sure if you're going to stay around, but I'm going to stay, I'm going to be here and I'm going to work on being the spouse that I vowed to be, that I want to be, that yes I do want to you to be. That I'm going to be that type of spouse even if you're not. Now that takes incredible integrity, but the beauty of it is it actually increases the chances of you getting the response that you want from the other person, by saying I'm not sure how you're going to respond to this but I want you to know that I want more time with you because I really do love spending time with you. Now I know you've got work concerns, right? I know that and I know that you might hear this as me coming across as being nagging on you, I just, I want you to know I'm not complaining about what you do with your time and I'm not telling you to do anything differently. What I am informing you of is that I love spending time with you and I would like to spend some more. I'm not sure how you're going to receive that, but that's what I'm going to continue to pursue. That's what it takes to change a marriage, that's what it takes to change society, and it really has started every revolution in history. I just flew in from Memphis this morning, had the incredible pleasure of going to the National Civil Rights Museum, which is built on the site of the Rain Motel, where Dr. King was assassinated. And there is in that a bus, a replica of a Montgomery bus and you walk in and there is a statue of the bus driver and he's turned around facing Miss Parks. And there is a statue of Rosa Parks in the 4th row, sitting as she did and you can sit right next to her and when you do it starts this audio and it begins to replay the entire scene. You guys all know the story. She gets on the 4th row, which was the first row of the colored section then the bus entirely fills up, one white gentleman then gets on, which according to the law all four persons of color in the 4th row needed to get up and give up their seats for the one white gentleman, and three of them did. And one just said, thankfully, not today, I'm not going to move. Now she was a member of the NAACP and earlier she was quoted as saying, "Nothing's going to change until all the Negroes come together as one." But then she realized that was a lie, because as long as you believe that, as long as you're waiting for other people's cooperation and needing their response, then nothing ever changes, no one ever makes a move. What actually creates movement, what creates social change, what brings revolution is one person saying regardless of what you're going to do this is what I'm going to do. And that's what she said. Ma'am I'm going to have to have you arrested. You go ahead and do that, but I'm not moving. That's what can bring about change in your marriage. That's what can bring about the types of relationships you really want. Is you saying to yourself, not to anyone else, but first saying to yourself I'm going to pursue what I really want. One of the tragedies about divorce is so often is it is the very first declaration of independence that a person has in their relationship. They think you know what I cannot be me in this relationship so what I need to do in order to fully be me is get out of this relationship and then I can fully be me. And that is the tragedy because the only way to truly be married is to continually declare that independence within the relationship. That's what the I do is, it's a declaration of independence. There is no more profound declaration of independence because what you're saying is I am in total control of my choices. I'm in total control of me being on this stage and my commitments and with that control I am going to vow to share my life with this person. Why? Not out of obligation, not because I think it's a death sentence to me. I'm doing it because that's what I want to do. It's pursuing with everything in you I want this. It's what I call being a truly self-centered spouse. Not self-centered in a way that says you only care about you. No, you care about the other person and you care about you. And so it's a process of becoming a centered-self saying I am under no other person's obligation, I am not here at the force of anyone, I am acting as my own independent agent, and I am declaring that as an independent agent I want you. I want to share my life with you. I want to be by your side no matter what happens. I want to commit that way to you, to God, to these people, ultimately to me because that's what I want. And that doesn't stop after the I do. It just continues. It means that as you discover whoa we really are different people in that first year, won't take long, it means then still saying I do. I means as kids come along and oh my Gosh the pressures and all of a sudden the extended family that you thought you have begun to set good boundaries with are now completely surrounding you with the new baby and offering you untold amounts of advice and entering into your life in ways you didn't anticipate. I do, it means when that sickness comes along that you didn't anticipate until far later then this. I do, means when rich or poor happens. I do, not because you do, but because I do. Because I want you. I want to pursue a life with you. It's what I said I wanted to do and it's what I still want. And the beauty of it is by focusing more on you and your decision to be the spouse you want to be, it increases the chances that you'll get an authentic response back from your spouse, vowing to out of their own volition, out of their own choice be that spouse in return. And that's ultimately what you want. It's what we all want. We want a marriage with someone who's acting as an independent agent, who chooses on their own to share their lives with us in a calm, in a kind, in a sometimes very, very passionate way. And that's what they want from us. And the beauty of marriage is that we continually get to share with one another new parts of ourselves as we evolve and as we voluntarily share that part of ourselves, that newness that we discover about ourselves, we share that with the other person and they share that with us. But it creates difficulty because man this is not exactly what I signed up for or this isn't the person I thought I married, a little more different than I had anticipated and the entire process is more challenging than I anticipated. That's marriage. If you are one of the willing, who's able to take that as a good thing, is able to see it as an adventure then marriage can be that. If not well, then you're going to join millions that get divorced and it happens all the time. I want to hear from you. (404) 872-0750. 1-800-WSBTALK, that's 1-800-972-8255. What do you want out of your marriage that you aren't getting? How are you tempted to throw in the towel and join the ranks of so many that have done so and are doing so. Give us a call. You're listening to ScreamFree Radio on NewsTalk am750WSB.

[It's a relationship revolution you don't want to miss. You're listening to ScreamFree Radio with Hal Runkel on NewsTalk 750WSB]

Hal: Oh Neil. Yeah you're going to have to pour me a drink after hearing that cheese. Neil Diamond everybody, telling it like it is. Love is difficult, but we at ScreamFree Radio want to help you experience a new-found calm into your stress-filled life and help you create and enjoy the relationships you've always wanted, particularly your marriage. I want to hear from Chuck in Atlanta. Chuck, you're on the program, welcome.

Chuck: How are you doing, sir?

Hal: I'm doing well, how are you, sir?

Chuck: Absolutely wonderful, thank you.

Hal: Good. What is your question?

Chuck: Well actually I didn't have so much question as a comment. I wanted to comment and just thank God for my beautiful wife and two beautiful children and tell people about how I've been married almost 8 years. And it is not easy all the time, but it is worth it.

Hal: Okay. What do you think the one thing, the one factor is for you, even though it's not easy to still continue and pursue it and enjoy it?

Chuck: I think what makes this one easier, if I can say that is being Christian and having God. But the one thing is compromise.

Hal: Compromise.

Chuck: It's just like anything else. You go to a restaurant, sometimes you can't get what you want, you gotta compromise. And when you compromise, believe me the pay back is ten times better than what you would have ever settled for. And I just want to tell people out there if you're having trouble trust the in God, stick it out, and it can work and it's worth it.

Hal: Okay. Well thank you very much for the call. I want to take off on that and talk about this notion of compromise because it is absolutely one of the things that is preached by a lot of marriage experts. And here's what I believe, that if we actually define the term compromise as, what he just described as sometimes pursuing the restaurant you want, sometimes pursuing the restaurant that your spouse wants then I don't believe that's actually compromise. I believe that's just making choices. Making choices about it's not just about me getting what I want, it's about also wanting you to get what you want, because I love you, right? That's not compromise. And so if that's what he's speaking of and if that's what a marriage expert is talking of then great, do that. Make choices to not just champion your own pursuits, but to champion the pursuits of your spouse, because that's what you ultimately want. You want you both to be enjoying yourself in a marriage, but usually compromise means that I am going to sacrifice a part of myself. A part of what I want with the hope that that will help make it easier for us to get along, right? So I'm going to do that, I'm going to sacrifice part of myself that just doesn't seem to fit with our arrangement. So I'm going to do that with the hope that your going to do the same thing. That type of compromise, which we'll talk about more after the break, is actually, can be deadly to a relationship. I want to hear more from you. (404) 872-0750. 1-800-WSBTALK, that's 1-800-972-8255. You're listening to ScreamFree Radio on NewsTalk am750WSB.

[Now back to ScreamFree Radio with New York Times Best Selling Author and creator of the ScreamFree relationship revolution, Hal Runkel on NewsTalk 750WSB.]

Hal: The best of my love is actually in this room, but it's not going to you the listener it's going to someone that I have the blessing of having with me on the show, one of the producers is my wife, Jenny Runkel.

Jenny: Hello.

Hal: And she does an amazing job at our ScreamFree.com manning a couple of things that she wants to tell you about right now.

Jenny: Yeah, Hal we're having a lot of callers and I just wanted to say, if you can't get through, but you want to ask us a question, particularly about today's show, just go to the website. It's www.ScreamFree.com, there's a special link for WSB listeners. You can also go to our forum and there's a thread on general parenting that talks about kids and divorce. I know that's a huge topic, so I just wanted to let everybody know that that's available to them.

Hal: Okay. Let's get back to the callers. Jeff, in Dunwoody, welcome to the program.

Jeff: Yeah, first let me promise my comment on this. I think that there needs to be laws on the books that make it a crime to hurt a marriage intentionally, number one. And I think there's a problem there because there isn't such a thing. A marriage should be held to be a very... The most important institution as far as I'm concerned.

Hal: I gotcha.

Jeff: And number two, anyone or anything that does anything to interfere with a man and wife right away they should just be taken care of by law.

Hal: And it sounds like..

Jeff: They should not have to get into debates with attorneys and district attorneys.

Hal: And it sounds like you feel like a victim.

Jeff: Yeah, well what happened in my marriage and it really caused problems over many, many years is my wife's ex-husband who caused my wife serious psychological damage during their marriage. This is going almost 20 years ago when they finally got their divorce. In the course pf my marriage I don't know what, I'm not going to go into details, but he's really caused a lot of problems for us.

Hal: They have children together?

Jeff: Yeah. They're adults, they're in their 20's, in college and stuff.

Hal: How long have you and your wife been married?

Jeff: Going on 14 years.

Hal: 14 years. So the kids were probably living in your home for a while.

Jeff: Yeah.

Hal: So they were co-parenting together?

Jeff: Yeah, I mean yeah, but she has good kids, let's put it that way. But the issue here is what he's done is and it's caused a lot of problems. And we don't even know how he's done it. I can't even tell you the psychological dynamic to this, especially for a husband. And I just in fact saw a lawyer this week to find out what I could do, because I've been to district attorneys, I've been to just a lot of people and what he's done is, he's placed himself on, for example on the new home owners database as the owner of my house. Just to invade my privacy, just to cause a lot of problems, successfully I may add. And what no attorney can see how to sue him and no district attorney can find a criminal code to go after. Exactly, I don't understand how the law hasn't and can't. And the police just can't get a hold of something tangible, legally. When district attorneys can't help. When high priced lawyers, honest lawyers who don't just take money and then later tell you sorry.

Hal: Jeff, Jeff, hold on. Maybe it's not their issue.

Jeff: Pardon me?

Hal: Well maybe the reason they're not intervening is they don't see it's their issue.

Jeff: Well they don't see any law that they can pursue.

Hal: Sure, so maybe the person that you should be pursuing is your wife.

Jeff: What are you (inaudible)?

Hal: Well, you're frustrated that her relationship with her ex has deteriorated to the point that they've been divorced for a long time and yet that relationship is still causing havoc in your marriage now.

Jeff: Well, they really haven't had a relationship for a long time.

Hal: No, they have.. If he's still involved in your life then they have a relationship. And what's happened is you have been triangled in between the two of them.

Jeff: Well, let's put it this way that relationship isn't anything that wife has anything to do with. She has had no contact with him and therefore he has forced himself into my house where I'm getting mail as if he owns my house.

Hal: Right, which means that she should have contact with him. So her efforts to..

Jeff: Well you know what? It's interesting you say that because I have talked to him and I've told him if you'll apologize to her for some of the things you've done and maybe reimburse her for some of money that you stole from her, she might actually and I would be very open to communication. But he gets involved with her and ends up using the children to defraud us out of money.

Hal: Of course, of course, which is another triangle.

Jeff: I have to protect myself and my marriage, which of course hasn't worked very well because of the devious ways he's gone about doing things.

Hal: Sure and here's the issue and thank you very much for the call, Jeff. Here's the issue is triangles happen like that where his relationship with his ex-wife also happens to be you're current wife and the problem you have with him is because they're not communicating. That gives him in your words reign to enter into your current marriage and so you then are looking for someone to fix that. You go to him directly, or now you're looking for laws to correct the issue. You want someone else to come in, right? Instead of addressing the person who I believe you really have the problem with which is your current wife. The fact that they have not resolved their issues enough to clearly set guidelines for his involvement with her is going to be. That's what you're really upset about. So often we are looking to the wrong people. The fact is that she does have a relationship with him and she always will have a relationship with him as co-parents. That will never go away. So it is her responsibility to deal with him, not yours, not the law's, hers. Those type of triangles happen all the time and they happen in marriage all the time. And so often we don't want to address the person we have the issue with one to one, our spouse. So what we do is we go to another party. It's like, I've always thought about this, if my wife were to cheat, right? We made a joke about it earlier that she has, but if she were to actually cheat, I would not be angry at the guy. So often we talk about well there's this guy code and you just don't do that, right? No, I believe my wife is an incredibly attractive woman, so I don't blame the guy if he's gonna sleep with my wife. I don't blame you dude, I like to sleep with her too. Who's my real issue with? Her. She's the one that's violating our marriage. She's the one that's saying I don't any more, and I am going to do with this guy or do this guy, right? She's the one that I'm going to have an issue with, not some outside party. So often we avoid the very confrontation that is needed to bring our marriage to where we want it to be. But as long as we avoid that, then our marriage begins to deteriorate. We get resentful and we don't want to own up to the idea that I'm a part of this marriage and I have issues with this other person and those issues need to be addressed. Because what does not get addressed between couples will get acted out somehow.

Jenny: Apparently even after a divorce takes place.

Hal: Absolutely. It's one of the fascinating things about divorce is troubles that led to the relationship being dissolved still continue, especially if you have kids, that relationship has to continue. Bobby in Mableton, welcome to the program. (Long Pause) Bobby?

Bobby: Yeah, can you hear me?

Hal: Yes, I can hear you now.

Bobby: Okay, alright, well you know I had something very positive to say there then, and then when you look through that marriage, you took me back to a very..

Hal: Painful situation.

Bobby: ..a bad place. But I mean, what I want to say is, first of all, I want to commend you on the work that you and your wife are doing.

Hal: Thank you.

Bobby: I think it's very important and I think it's very much needed. And just to give you a little bit, I just want to make a comment here. I'm like 7 years away from being divorced.

Hal: Removed from divorce, and you're not remarried?

Bobby: No, I didn't remarry.

Hal: How long was your first marriage?

Bobby: My first marriage was about 7 years.

Hal: 7 years, okay that's longer than.. Because usually divorce happens within the first 5 years. So you guys made it through those tough first 5 years, but I'm guessing they weren't exactly happy years.

Bobby: Well, I don't think they were as good as they probably could have been, but they weren't terrible. I mean, things didn't really get bad until like maybe the last year.

Hal: Sure, sure. So what's your comment or question?

Bobby: The comment I wanted to make is is that there's a lot of guys out there, and this is why I'm glad you're doing your show, is that a lot of guys out there that are in marriages or in these kinds of situations right now. The one thing I found out led me to be in the situation I was in was the fact that I did have poor relationship skills, as far as marriage is concerned. And as a matter of fact, I was ignorant to the fact that there was even such a thing as poor relationship skills...

Hal: It's just supposed to happen, right?

Bobby: ...in reguards to things that are condusive to a successful marriage. I was completely ignorant, okay, to that fact.

Hal: Sure, and do you see that trend more happening with guys than girls? With men than woman?

Bobby: Yeah, I think it's definately more shown with guys than with woman because one of the things when I look back, is that just looking back on my situation, if there was a book or seminar about improving my career I would have gone to that.

Hal: You would do it, you would do it.

Bobby: A book about improving my biceps, I didn't have any problems investing in that, but when it came to poor relationship skills as far as things that are condusive to a successful marriage, first of all I was ignorant to that fact that there was such a thing that existed. Okay so then on top of that I wasn't investing in it. I didn't have wittiness to invest in it. And women, I think because of all the different type shows, like Oprah, like all of the different type shows out there resources women are much more condusive to us.

Hal: Well thank you very much for the call Bobby. Obviously that is part of the reason why we're doing what we're doing at ScreamFree, because you're absolutely right. Relationships don't just happen, we assume they do, growing up and seeing them happen around us, but they don't just happen. And one of the hallmarks of being an adult, what I'm beginning to believe is one of the hallmarks of being an adult is learning to ask for help. Of never assuming that you have something down, especially the most important relationships in our lives. I will agree with you somewhat that woman kind of have more of a.. It's socially acceptable for women to persue relationship advice. They, by far, buy more relationship books, by far, parenting books, marriage books, they by far buy more books. They persue more training. Yes. And you know what's ironic though? Women, twice as much as men, are the ones who instigate divorce. They're the ones who are persuing these incredible relationship skills, but they're the one's instigating the divorce twice as much as men because their levels of statisfaction with those relationships are far less. Ultimately, I believe the reason why we don't persue relationship advice, or we even think that those are skills out there is because we still believe that getting into a relationship means now I'm going to have someone else benefit me. I'm going to love them for the benefits that they then shower upon me. And because that's going to be there and I assume that's always going to be there then I'm okay. And so we expect a relationship, especially marriage to be reletively easy because I'm now going to be taken care of, especially men have that idea when they get into that relationship. Women maybe they have that idea, but they feel this social pressure to make sure to take care of the man. It's like the joke that we always see that began with the Beranstein Bears, that basically, the dad is just another kid. He's just another kid who is the wonderful recipiant of the mother being the relationship caretaker. And women have been sold the lie that it's up to them, it is absolutely up to them to maintain the relationship, make it work. You know what? It's up to me to make the relationships work, why? Because they're my relationships. It's also up to the people in the relationships to make it work for them. Assuming, assuming that someone else is going to do the work in our relationship is a critical mistake. The basic principle of ScreamFree philosophy is I have to learn to focus on me because I'm the only one I can fully control. What I want to help you do is regain control of your life, but that doesn't mean getting control of someone else's life. It's ultimately regain control of your emotions, manage your emotions and then manage your choices and recognize that if I want great relationships then that's up to me to openly, vulnurably persue what I want. And what I want right now is to go to break. (404) 872-0750 or 1-800-WSBTALK, that's 1-800-972-8255. You're listening to ScreamFree Radio here on NewsTalk am750WSB.

[Dependable airborne traffic with Captain Herb. Calming the world one relationship at a time, now back to ScreamFree Radio with Hal Runkel on NewsTalk 750WSB.]

Hal: Bizare love triangles. We all have experienced that and most of us find ourselves in triangle anytime if you're married. So much easier to focus on a third party, easier to focus on kids, easier to focus on the in-laws, easier to focus on the exes, than it is to address the person who's right in front of you, the person you actually want to enjoy the relationship with and more often than not, the person you have issues with. You know I want folks to have great marriages and what that means is they have to fully own everything they feel, both good and bad. This doesn't mean you express every thought or every feeling you have all the time, but it does mean that when you don't address things in your marriage, they do not go away. They do not go away. What does not get addressed will get acted out. We heard a caller earlier saying, well we've been having communication problems because we never ever talk. No, you're not having communication problems, you just don't like what's getting communicated because you cannot not communicate. We are always, always communicating something. Always. So if you don't address something it will get communicated that you're frustrated with it, or you will act it out somehow. It is far better to not let an issue go by. And it's interesting, I didn't even realize that when my wife and I were beginning to make that shift, it was actually life changing to us to not let any issue go by without addressing it kind of right away. Whoa, hey, hey You're coming across a little patronizing right there, and now the other person, might say well you come across patronizing. Alright that may be the case but I would like to address this issue right now. Part of being ScreamFree is not being anxiety free. I'll be anxiety free about my marriage when I'm dead. It's not being aloof, it's not being aloof saying I don't care anymore. I'm just going to be laid back and easy. No, part of being ScreamFree is recognizing this situation demands being addressed. I want to address this situation, whether it's I want to persue something more with my spouse or I want something to stop with my spouse. It demands getting addressed. Now I need to pause because whether I'm going to address it is no longer the issue, but how I'm going to address it can make all the difference in the world. ScreamFree is about taking your relationships very, very seriously and saying I want to get what I want in my relationships, I want the other person to get what they want in this relationship. The only way we can begin that process is by being willing to make ourselves vonurable. State exactly how we feel. State exactly what I want. I promise you, you will get better results that way, then just hoping it'll somehow get better. You've been listening to ScreamFree Radio. Please visit our website, ScreamFree.com. You can persue articles, there's a forum talk with ScreamFree folks all across the world. You've been talking to ScreamFree Radio on NewsTalk 750WSB.

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