-- "Hal removed our parenting shackles — his approach has truly liberated us, giving us back not just our 'cool', but our joy." Sheri Lynch, The Bob & Sheri Show "We received more hits on our web site than any other guest since the site has been up. The book title and topic really connect with parents." Caroline Kruse, Jacquie and Caroline, Family Matters Radio

ScreamFree Radio - News-Talk AM750 WSB

Complete Transcript, Show No. 4, April 27, 2008

[Helping you to realize that all your relationships can be ScreamFree. This is ScreamFree Radio with relationship expert, Hal Runkel on NewsTalk AM750 WSB. Call now and talk to Hal at (404) 872-0750 or toll-free at (800) WSB-TALK.]

Hal: Bringing you a new-found calm into your stress-filled life. Helping you create the relationships you've always wanted. This is ScreamFree Radio, I am your occasionally ScreamFree host, Hal Runkel. It is 6 minutes past the hour and we are talking about kids. In particular, 462 kids, I believe that number is correct, who this past week have been transplanted from San Angelo Community Center, or San Angelo Coliseum, in Texas to hundreds of new foster homes. Yes, we're talking about the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Compound that was raided and discovered all sorts of fascinating relationships and now the controversy is, I believe is just beginning. There's a number of issues involved when you start talking about the government coming in and invading a, or raiding a society that has set itself up as sectary, separate from the rest of the world. And now the state comes in to tell them that the way they're living they cannot live. I do not want you to hear a bias in my voice in that I am trying to represent all sides because frankly as a family therapist, it is difficult for me to hear stories like this and not automatically come across as very judgmental of these folks. Because when I hear stories of 14 year olds being forced to get married to 40 year olds, and when I hear stories about babies having babies and all of that done in the name of religion, it is very difficult to remain ScreamFree. In fact, what I want to scream from the rooftops. I want to pass judgment on that and I'm sure a lot of you are like that but there are some folks out there feel opposite. That this freedom of religion issue. That this country was based on people that were seen as outcasts, whack-jobs who came across the pond to form new colonies so they could practice their religion. The issue is, in my opinion the issue is when does freedom to express yourself, to practice your religion when does it cross a line into abusing those who do not have the freedom to make decisions for themselves, do not have the freedom to not practice that religion? There are a number of interesting stories that are beginning to come out where eventually we're gonna talk about those stories. We're eventually going to it home to us. Those of you who know me know that talking about issues in not the abstract. Its not where I'm most comfortable because we all cherish our children. We all have so many anxieties about the possibilities that they may be tainted by the outside world. I often tell seminar audiences when we speak, ScreamFree parenting is not anxiety free parenting. There is no such thing. I will be anxiety free about my kids when I'm dead. ScreamFree which comes from the name of a book that I wrote, ScreamFree Parenting, is not just about lowering out voices with our kids it's about learning to manage that anxiety that we have. I think it is a very adult thing to experience that anxiety because we absolutely love our kids but it's also a very adult thing to learn to manage that anxiety. And some people manage it in different ways. Some groups throughout history have said the way I'm going to manage this anxiety about wanting to my children is I'm going to separate them from the world. I believe I'm the best resource for them. I believe I'm the best influence in their life, and I believe the world though is so powerful, so pernicious that if my kids are exposed to that world then my influence will lessen. My influence will be defeated and these children will be lost. So what I need to do is surround them in the best possible environment. I need to, maybe take them away from everyone and set up a compound near San Angelo, Texas. Now I used to live near San Angelo, Texas, the fact that they are calling that somewhat heavenly is quite a shock. I think the reason they can have a compound that's totally separate is because no one else will wants to live near there. There's not that many people out there in West Texas out there but they have set this compound up because they want to protect their kids and what they think is this generation - us we adults, we have been spoiled somewhat so what we need to do is start over the next generation so the entire hopes of this particular sect are placed upon the next generation and in order to keep them the blank slate in order to keep them untainted then we need to cut them off and all that is coming to an end this week. Where these kids, some ranging as young as 13 months old, still nursing taken away from their nursing mothers, which is another fascinating controversial issue, to some that are 18 years old experiencing life in a totally different way this week. Seeing television for the first time, hearing radio, seeing video games, seeing shorts for the first time. So many of these have not seen the knees of the opposite sex their entire lives. Seeing women with cut hair for the first time. Short sleeves. Radically different world and imagine that your children are leaving your home and going to a totally different home. Now here's the truth even if its next door, it's a radically different experience then what your kids have had with you because every home is different. Every family system is different. You can imagine that would create a tremendous fit of anxiety thinking about your children being exposed and that's what all these mothers are going through. But it forces a question among us when I'm talking and thinking about how I conduct myself as a parent. When I'm thinking about the leadership I have with my children what is the primary motivation. Is it based on this fear that they will be tainted? This fear that the world will gobble them up. This fear that bad things can happen. Not saying whether you have that, of course you have that if you're a parent. You have that fear. The question is, "Is that the primary driving force in how you live as a parent? How you lead your family? Is it this effort to protect them or is it in an effort to prepare them? ScreamFree parenting is ultimately about parenting with integrity. It means calming down our anxiety just enough so that we can begin to parent out of our highest principles not out of deepest fears. Because when we parent out of those fears, when we get emotionally reactant and let that anxiety lead us then inevitably we end up creating the very outcome we were hoping to avoid. Look at the situation in a effort to totally protect their kids from the outside word, it has led to a situation in where now these kids are thrust into the outside world with very little chance of actually succeeding in that world because the have not been given skills, they have not been prepared for that world, but that's not just them. We all everyday, those of us who are parents make choices, am I working here out of my need to protect them because of my fear or am I working here out of my love for them in order to prepare them for existence in the world? (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK that's 1-800-972-8255. You are listening to ScreamFree Radio NewsTalk AM750 WSB. We're talking about those kids out in Texas that are suddenly getting from one compound to hundreds of different homes. What that issue means for each of us. What we can learn about our parenting challenges and our parenting anxieties by examining this situation. What I'm confident of is that every parent listening and every parent in that compound, what I'm confident of is that we all have great parenting desires that we all have the possibility of making great parenting decisions. In so many ways we want very similarly across this globe similar things for our kids, but when we let our anxiety begin to drive us it's amazing the mistakes that we'll make. (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK that's 1-800-972-8255. You are listening to ScreamFree Radio NewsTalk AM750 WSB.

[It's a relationship revolution you don't want to miss. You're listening to ScreamFree Radio with Hal Runkel on NewsTalk AM750 WSB]

Hal: 22 minutes past the hour, helping the world calm down and grow up, this is ScreamFree Radio. 462 kids have been displaced to new homes throughout Texas, new foster homes and speaking of more angles to go the foster care system in this country is so challenging. All of us know anecdotes about foster kids and how they've struggles. I think that it's over 70% of foster kids end up drugs, pregnant, jail. That's over 70% across the board. Again it's a perfect example and it's a painful example of a principle we teach at ScreamFree that when you give into your reactivity, when you let your anxiety make your decisions for you, it doesn't just make things worse. It actually creates the very outcomes you were trying to avoid. I tell a story in one of the chapters of the book, about my son. He was 2 years old and we moved into a new house in Lawrenceville, this was several years ago. And there was 2 story foyer with stairwell attached to one wall which left a banister on the other side of the stairs with a little ledge of step on the outside of banister. I think you know where this is going, any of you if your a parent out there certainly do. So I'm coming out at the top of the stairs at my bedroom and I hear from my son, "Hi Daddy." He's 2 years old, he's climbing on the outsides of the stairs just hanging onto the banister pickets, his little feet on the little ledge of step on the other side of banister. Nothing below him but hardwood floors. Okay this is ScreamFree parenting, what the heck do I do now. Now I wasn't planning on going downstairs so I could have just kept trucking down the hall ignore the situation and hope it works out for the best. Hope I don't hear a splat, right? So many times I hear from parents I'm not a screaming parent, I'm a laid back parent. Well, that's just another form of screaming because being laid back, being aloof like that is disconnecting from the situation because you can't handle it and usually this laid back parent is married to a screaming parent, who's having to make up for your laid-backness. That's most marriages out there. But my integrity demands that I address this situation with my son. He's in mortal danger, but what happens if I stay connected that I can't stay calm. What happens if I lunge for him. What happens if I give in to that panic of the moment of what might happen and yell, "Oh no." It just increases the chances that he'll fall. That's the power of emotional reactivity, when we let our anxiety make decisions for us. When we let it direct our behavior, it doesn't just make things worse it actually creates the very outcome we were hoping to avoid in the first place and that's the real tragedy of what has happened in Texas. That's the real tragedy is that whenever a group pays so much attention to it's fear of what might happen to it's desire to keep their kids completely protected. Whenever we do that we inevitably create the outcomes we were hoping to avoid because what we have not done is prepared our children for reality. What we have not done is a principle that says preparing my kids for existence in this world is the best thing I can do as a parent. The most loving thing I can do as a parent. And I would say base on my own personal spiritual journey, I would say it's the most godly thing to do is not protect my kids by separating them completely especially given some of the things we'll talk about later in the show about what things we're discovering go on inside the compound, but the greatest thing I can do is help them prepare them for coexistence. Coexistence with others we're talking about the central crisis of our time is the ability for different groups in this continuously over-populated planet to coexist with one another. Coexist in a way that enables your children to hold on to what you believe matters most about their heritage or about their development or about their brain what holds most about their spirituality. You want to give them the tools they need so that they can hold on to that part of themselves and at the same time coexist with people who believe differently who think different, who parent differently. These folks in San Angelo they wanted nothing to do with that preparation for coexistence. They wanted to protect them from coexistence. We want to talk to you about this. We want to hear what scares you most about the outside world and their influence on your kids. What is the biggest fear you have when you think about your children and how are you tempted to let that fear determine your parenting. How are you tempted to give in to the desire to protect, protect, protect, protect and how have you seen that begin to lead to their defensiveness against you. To them working very very hard to defeat any efforts you have to restrict them from the outside world. Parenting is a very difficult journey, but we make it all the more difficult when we listen more to our fears than we do to our principles. (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK, that's (800) 972-8255. You're listening to NewsTalk AM750WSB.

[He's calming the world one relationship at a time. Now back to ScreamFree with Hal Runkel on NewsTalk AM750 WSB]

Hal: Bringing the new-found calm into your stress-filled life, helping you create the relationships you've always wanted, this is ScreamFree Radio. It's 35 minutes past the hour here on NewsTalk 750WSB. There are a number of ways to reach us, ScreamFreeRadio.com is where you can learn about all things ScreamFree, including reading a number of article written by myself and someone else in the studio with us every time here on ScreamFree radio. She is director of content for the website. She is a co-producer of this show. She's kind of our main researcher as well and occasionally, very occasionally, she allows me to be her lover. This is my wife, Jenny Runkel and we have been talking about the story about the FLDS, mind you. Issuing a statement that has actually come out from the Mormon Church saying please do not associate us with the FLDS. The FLDS separated 50 years ago, something like that, in an effort to retain their polygamist practices which they believe gives them some certain levels of, tell me if I'm wrong, certain levels of stature in the next life.

Jen: I'm no expert, but that's what I'm reading.

Hal: Something along those lines. One of those things that's fascinating about these polygamist sex that is very, we don't think about it that often, but it takes necessarily, you got to have more women than men.

Jen: Right

Hal: If there's going to be several women per each man.

Jen: Right

Hal: So we are in this sect, raising children, creating children, having children by marring them to older men, but what happens when they have boys?

Jen: I came across something, a couple of different places when I was doing some reading this week and it's coming out now that this sect they regularly excommunicate boys as young as 14. That seems to be the cut off age and they claim its for bad behavior and they have a few things listed that they excommunicate for.

Hal: Bet they do.

Jen: Flirting with girls, watching a movie, listening to rock music, playing basketball, wearing short sleeves, those are the nature of things that are considered offensive. But what happens to these kids is it's so tragic, basically from what I'm reading is they take them. It's been up to a thousand at this point for I believe the FLDS as a whole. They take them to the side of the road somewhere in Arizona or Utah or West Texas and they leave them. And then many times they will tell them you are no longer going to heaven, you're an outcast and the mothers are punished if they exhibited much grief.

Hal: Amazing. Again it is very, very difficult not to immediately put my judge hat on. Because I am a firm believer of the more I judge others, the more I'm going to be judged myself. At the same time there has to be a voice of justice for those who are helpless.

Jen: Absolutely.

Hal: And that is believe the states motivation for intervening in this case. But it does raise lots of questions about what is the healthiest family arrangement for kids and who determines what that is. The nuclear family as we know it has not been around very long, historically in terms of just like our family, you, me and the 2 kids. We just have 2, right?

Jen: Yes.

Hal: It feels like many more at times.

Jen: Exponentially more.

Hal: But that setting is actually in the history of human kind and very rare because we used to have elder parents living with other siblings, and then you would have servants living, several generations living and that still happens today. And also a rather recent development is the explosion of single parent forms a different family constellation. All this creates even more difficulties for deciding how to behave as a parent. Because if we're in a situation that's not similar, like this cult believes that there is a certain way of doing family that is better than any other and because we recognize the rest of the world isn't going to embrace this then we need to separate ourselves from the rest of the world. Well all of us have interesting things that we do with our families, that sometimes we really believe, but we may not share with others or they may have levels of stigma attached to them. And usually this is born out of our desire to protect our children, to keep them untainted. A very, very common example here in Georgia, but throughout is homeschooling. That is born out of a desire to keep kids protected and untainted and give them in parents minds, the best chance of giving them the education that they want their kids to have. Giving children the education that the parents really want them to have without the stains of the outside world. Now philosophical differences aside I don't understand how anyone could stand to be around their kids all day long. I certainly would think that'd be a nightmare situation in our home, but it's very, very common. Now the question is, Is that homeschooling based out of a principle decision of what is most loving or is it based out of a fear. What we're talking about here is how open is your family system to the outside environment. How closed is it? An example of a completely closed family system is the one we've been talking about, the FLDS closed of because the outside world is automatically seen as evil and stained. So we need to close ourselves off. What's fascinating though is when you close yourselves off to the outside world, usually within that world things are far too open. There aren't enough boundaries that's why inside this compound you have multiple sexual relationships happening between different people and multiple partners and that's the polygamy stuff comes in and again in the name of protecting kids they're exposing them within their compound to what I believe, as a family therapist, some very damaging situations. A completely open system would be total chaos. This is, I remember - I hope my Dad's not listening. I remember that after my parents got divorced then it was kind of like this badge with me that I could tel my friends well, my dad he's not gonna know if I spend the night, so I can spend the night at your house or not. It doesn't matter because my Dad's not going to know and he's probably not even going to care. Now turns out he did care, but it was a difficult situation. but I could stay out, stay in, that's an open system and while a kid may think that's cool, what it does is erode that kid's kind of confidence in the leadership in his life and confidence within himself. But parenting decisions when we have to make them all day, everyday, are going to come from somewhere.
what place inside us are those decisions going to come from?

Jen: Hal, as you were mentioning earlier, they can contact us through the website. I actually - someone just wrote in, let me read it to you. This is from Linda in Delucia, it says, "Hi Hal. I'm not sure I'm in agreement with you. Are you saying that we shouldn't protect our kids from outside influences that we think are harmful? My daughter is hanging out with a really terrible crowd right now and I'm afraid that she's going down a wrong path. My husband and I are determined not to let that happen. We've restricted her contact and her freedom and even thought she's angry with us now, we think that she'll thank us in the future. How can that be wrong?"

Hal: You know, I agree with Linda that in that of itself is not wrong. Absolutely that we should be protecting our kids from bad influences as we see it. And ultimately it's going to be different how we define the bad influence. What I'm concerned about it not necessarily whether they intervene, not even necessarily how they intervene with their daughter. What I'm concerned about is why they're intervening. See we have to be conscious of our motivations going into any activity. Because the same activity, protecting our kids from harm can come from totally different places and where it comes from will make all the difference in the world. So often parents start clamping down because they think, okay, I've made a mistake and my system was too open, it was too open and I let my daughter hang out with these people and I was too concerned with my work and stuff. I kind of let it go and now she's with there people and it's the really wrong crowd and now I want to step in and totally rip her from that because I like to think that I'm a good parent and I don't like to think that I made a mistake that actually led to her being attracted to be around this bad crowd. So I'm going to step in in effort to correct my previous mistake. Again that's letting your anxiety make the decision and usually when it comes from that motivation, -okay I made a mistake so now I need to fix that mistake because I want to feel like a good parent, okay, cut her off from everybody and from now on young lady you're going to - if I step in that way its usually going to backfire and actually push her further away. Again, ScreamFree Parenting is not being aloof and not doing anything, it is about learning to intervene. It's about preparing our kids for the outside world from the beginning and if it is a constant developing relationship with our children where we do make mistakes and then we stay calm when we see the effects of those mistakes and choices that our children make and then not to rush in over, overreact to it, but again come back to principle decisions. We want to help you make principle decisions with your kids because I know we're facing anxiety ridden developments circumstances that you wish your kids weren't involved in and it is among the most anxiety situations we as adults go through. We want to help you begin to make parenting decisions not out of your fear, but of your principles. Which give you the best chance of actually having the best outcome. (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK, that's (800) 972-8255. You're listening to NewsTalk AM750WSB.

Hal: Bringing a new found calm into your stress-filled life and helping you to create the relationships you've always wanted. This is ScreamFree Radio and I'm your host, Hal Runkel, your occasionally ScreamFree host. And the central question about parenting is this, how do I balance protecting my kid from life's dangers and yet exposing my child to life's lessons? (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK, that's (800) 972-8255. Or you can email me at AskHal at ScreamFree Dot Com. How do I balance protecting my kid from life's dangers and yet exposing my child to life's lessons. The way that the FLDS compound has said to answer that question is to sway it very extremely in protecting my kid from life's dangers and yet here's the definition of abuse, here's my definition of abuse of children is whenever the people who have been charged with protecting their child from life's dangers are the very ones who introduce their child to those dangers, then they are being abusive. So in effort to protect these kids from rock music, from television, from short sleeves, they are introducing them into incest, polygamy. They are kicking 14 year old boys out because they necessarily need in order to continue this polygamy, they need fewer boys than girls, but we still face the same question. We can easily point at them, it's what I call the Jerry Springer effect, is we love to point out how terrible they are and cast judgment on them for the way they view family and how they're messing up and we do it all the time. We do it on the street. We do it in our churches. We do it in, all over in politics. We point at those people who we don't agree with, who we think are messing up and we sometimes. It's very, very obvious to the rest of us, like on Springer, and the reason why we do it is because it makes us feel a little bit better about ourselves. Because if I can point out how bad they are, then I don't have to face the mistakes I'm making. But if you want to be authentic, if you want to actually live a life of integrity, if you want to be a leader that your kids and this world needs, then you're going to stop paying so much attention to the mistakes of other people except to use those mistake to help teach yourself some lessons. We all have to strive to find a balance of protecting our kids from life's dangers and yet exposing our kid to life's lessons. I'm not going to let my 2 year old play in the street so that he learns not to by letting him get hit by a car. I'm not going to do that, but a 12 year old, are they going to be in the street? Do I need to work at teaching them to prepare them for that, of course I do. I have to work very, very hard. We've got Jeff in Calhoon. Jeff welcome to the program. Hi Jeff.

Jeff: How are you doing?

Hal: I'm doing great, how are you sir?

Jeff: Good, good. I just wanted to share a few comments about homeschooling from a first-hand, you know because we do home school.

Hal: Okay great, I got a couple of minutes at most.

Jeff: I'm a pastor and we home-schooled our son ever since he's been in Kindergarten and we absolutely love it. I grew up in a family of educators in public schools. My parents are kind of concerned with us doing the homeschooling route, but they've seen the impact on our son and they're all for it.

Hal: Sure

Jeff: It's not for everyone and just as there are 31 flavors of Baskin Robins ice cream, there are 31 flavors of home-schoolers.

Hal: There's some that do networking, where they go to different houses.

Jeff: Yeah, there's some of that and we make sure that our son gets together with other kids, especially kids at church. Socialization has never been a problem wit us.

Hal: Well that's usually the criticism, right?

Jeff: It's a myth. And the other thing is there's some home-school parents who are very permissive in the way that even though they home-school and there's other home-school parents that are extremely legalistic and you know its..

Hal: I'm guessing that's not you.

Jeff: There's some of them that are in the middle and that's where we want to be.

Hal: Tell me this, what's the primary motivation if you guys could articulate quickly, what's the primary motivation for homeschooling?

Jeff: Our primary motivation is we prayed about it and felt God was leading us to do it. We wanted him to have a Christian education and we just felt like that's what we were supposed to do.

Hal: Because of the content of the education you wanted to give him?

Jeff: The content, the education and the life skills that we have at home and he is the kind of kid, he's adjusted around older people or younger people and we expose him to different things. The bible talks about he who walks of the wise will be wise, but a companion of fools will suffer hard.

Hal: Here's the thing, you have a great point, the main reasons why I would choose against homeschooling is because I don't know if I'm the wisest person to have teach my kids. Apparently, you think pretty highly and that's good.

Jeff: Fortunately I've got a wonderful wife and she's got her degree in education.

Hal: Well, that helps.

Jeff: It's not for everybody, but I just want to recommend to everyone that it is a good alternative.

Hal: Well thank you very much Jeff for the call. I appreciate it. Thanks for that voice. We are ScreamFree Radio. This is NewsTalk AM 750 WSB. We'll be right back.

[Helping you to realize that all your relationships can be ScreamFree. This is ScreamFree Radio with relationship expert, Hal Runkel on NewsTalk AM 750. Call now and talk to Hal at (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK.]

Hal: Bringing you new-found calm into your stress-filled life, helping you to create the relationships you've always wanted, this is ScreamFree Radio. I'm your host Hal Runkel. It is 6 minutes past the hour on NewsTalk 750WSB. In the studio with me is co-producer and occasionally my wife, Jenny Runkel. And there are a number of kids this week, 462, who have been displaced from a compound in Texas to the San Angelo community center and have been sent to hundreds of different foster homes all across the state and it raises a number of issues. I get the privilege of talking about parenting and relationships to a number of different audiences around the planet and it is amazing that if you want to talk to anyone, no matter how different this group is from you or your group, if you want to talk to anybody about what matters most to them talk to them about their kids. One of the amazing opportunities we had is I have started to receive invitations into the Islamic community here in this country. They are asking me to come in and teach them about ScreamFree, not just to help them build great bridges between parents and children, but to build bridges between East and West, between religions. They see in ScreamFree just this basic emphasis on not being reactive no matter what somebody does to you. You are still in control of your response. Concentrating on not being reactive no matter what that's essentially what ScreamFree is and acting out of your principles rather than your fears. That's what ScreamFree is about and it gives me the chance to go into these arenas where I've spoken to Jewish communities, I've spoken to a number of churches. I've spoken to a number of mosques and it is amazing that all the issues are the same. All the hopes are the same. All the fears are the same. We want our children to get something from us that is uniquely us. A heritage, a heritage of spirituality, a heritage of intellectual pursuit, a heritage of character. We want them to hold onto that some traditions. We want them to know who they are and yet at the same time by coming into this country for instance. We are asking our children to coexist among scores of other groups around them and that's a high, high task. For some of us the task is too high and some groups need to separate themselves from the rest of society, not prepare their kids for coexistence and to protect not prepare and that is when we give into that. Especially the extreme of the FLDS for instance. When we get into panic, I will tell you the result is always inevitable, eventually the same. Giving into our anxiety and letting that dictate over behaviors especially as parents but in all our relationships doesn't just make things worse, it actually creates the very outcomes we were hoping to avoid in the first place. My job as a parent is to continually focus on my behavior not on my kids, not on the outside world's behavior, but focus on the only person's behavior that I can actually control, mine. I cannot control all of the circumstances that are going to enter into my kids lives. I'm not going to totally locate myself in another way and to protect my kids at all costs. That is not my number 1 job as a parent. There's a great scene in 'Finding Nemo where Nemo's dad is lamenting, "I can't believe I lost him. I promised nothing bad would ever happen to him." And thankfully after a pause, Dori the fish says, "Well that was a dumb thing to do." Because we can't protect our kids from harm at all coast and if we try to we will actually inevitably introducing them into harm. As has happened with these 462 children.

Jenny: Well, you know what's interesting? That when I was reading about this, the actual FLDS back in 1953, they were in a town of Colorado City, they were not in a commune as you heard about today, which was a town that was populated by them and the authorities came in and took 177 children into state custody, charged them in and dispersed the women and children all throughout the west and what they're saying now is that act actually led to the FLDS leadership to be even more secretive and surround themselves, insulate themselves.

Hal: So now not in the town they have to create their own town.

Jenny: I just thought that was fascinating.

Hal: Sure. What's fascinating is so many different religions do this there was a call a couple years ago from a very conservative Christian groups saying that we needed to move to South Carolina and establish a Christian community. There is actually a Roman-Catholic town being built in Florida. And this is all being, and it's only for Roman-Catholic members and it's going to have everything they would possibly need. I think it's an extreme sect within the Roman-Catholic church, but its all born out of this need to protect our kids from harm at all costs. But its also thinking of our children as our little projects. See our kids are blank slates, our kids are unstained so we're going to separate ourselves to give them the best chance to avoid making all those mistakes we made. To avoid getting stained from all the things. Stuff out there that's wanting to invade our homes and take over our children's lives and stain them forever just like we feel stained that way. So re-actively just because of how we feel that way we're going to protect them and then we're going to change them. We're going to shape them. They're going to be our project. You think your immune to this we do it all the time. We do it all the time. I remember, Jenny, you would tell me a story about, this was when you were a teacher, seniors in high-school, 18 years old, months away from being on their own in college and their mother is coming to you asking about their grade this way, "Are we going to get an A this year?"

Jenny: Yeah actually it was conversation I heard in the hallway and it was one mother who was super involved in the school and as you can imagine in her child's life. And she said I just don't know what to do we're getting an A in math, we're getting an A in chemistry, we are getting a C in biology. And I wasn't struck by the C I was struck by the use of her noun.

Hal: By the we.

Jenny: And I'm an English teacher so pronouns do interest me, but in particular the we interested me. And how she was along side her child getting a C.

Hal: I want to protect them so that I can turn them in to my project so that I can shape them in a new way because kids are blank slates and I want to turn them so I constantly focus on what they're doing. And I constantly focus on how well they're doing and that becomes my validation as a parent is how well my kids are doing especially when it comes to school. We know when grades are coming out. We know the day grades are coming out, so we rush to their book-bags looking for them or we go on-line because we're not just looking for their grades, we're looking for our own because the grade they get because they're our project is directly related to our work with them. So we end up telling our kids something I hope we never say to our kids, but everybody does, I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you for getting that grade as if somehow we're taking credit. I'm willing to boast about your grade because your my project. I am your parent, you belong to me and so you're my project. So I need to work hard to protect you, un-spoil you from the world so that I can shape you as my project. I can shape you so I'm going to work very, very hard to make sure you get good grades so that I can put the bumper sticker on the back of my car that says I'm a proud parent of the honor roll student because your my project. Now I say I'm putting the bumper sticker on the back of my car for your self-esteem but then I always ask then why am I putting it on my car, shouting to the whole world look at me I've got an honor roll student. No wonder there's all those bumper stickers that say my Doberman Pincher can eat your honor roll child. Kids are not our projects and it's not our job to protect them at all costs. It's our job to prepare them for life as an adult. But of course this means that we first have to live as adults and that's what being a ScreamFree parent is all about. Let us help you become a ScreamFree parent. (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK, that's (800) 972-8255. You're listening to NewsTalk AM750WSB.

[It's a relationship revolution you don't want to miss. You're listening to ScreamFree Radio with Hal Runkel on NewsTalk 750WSB.]

Bringing a new-found calm into your stress-filled life, helping you create the relationship you always craved, this is ScreamFree radio. 22 past the hour and I had a couple callers during the break, one of whom took issue with me saying that we shouldn't be proud of our children and I think it's a great time for me to clarify that. This does not mean that I am not pleased or impressed or I do not want to tell my children what I think of them, but I want to be very, very careful with it because its not what I think of my children that is going to give them strength. They need the internal strength. They need to exist and thrive in this world. It's what they think of themselves that really really matters. See so often I see grown ups all the time in my office, but grown ups everywhere we go who are still continually chasing after mom and dad's approval. That need for dad to say he's proud of you, that he's seen my achievements, he's seen my choice in a mate, that he's seen this and please dad validate me by saying you're proud of me and we start that by continually holding that carrot out before our kids. We hold the carrot in front of them and say well if you do well you know what you're going to get dad saying I'm proud of you. So kid hits a home-run. Wow I'm so proud of you. Okay, when's the next one? Next question, what if he didn't hit a home-run, what would you think of him? What's the opposite of proud, ashamed. Okay so now because you did that I'm proud of you, but before that I was not proud of you. I was ashamed of you. You stuck out 3 times so I wouldn't be proud of you, would I? So often what are we proud of? Their accomplishments? Are we proud of their character? But think of it this way, when we're saying I'm proud of you, you're saying I'm somehow taking credit for you. I'm boasting about that. That's what the word pride means. So, a neighbors kid comes up to me and says I hit a home-run. I'm not going to say I'm proud of you. I'm going to say, "Wow, way to go." I'm going to treat him like a separate human being that is in control of himself and he's the one who made the effort and he hit a home-run. Wow, way to go you got to be really proud of yourself. You see that simple move I've made? I said it's not about me and what I think of you. It's about you and what you think of you. I don't want to constantly hold out this carrot on a stick out to my kids because that is shaping them into my project. That I need them to validate me because of the way they do because how they perform. I cannot continually be holding that out because that is not going to last for them. What's going to last for them is their own internal sense of strength, sense of self. This internal structure that helps them make good decisions. It helps them be able to stand strong and accept the consequences of their decisions, good or bad, and learn from them. That's because my job as a parent is to prepare them for life, not protect them from life. Now does that mean I don't hold my kids, no. I'm constantly trying to be an influence, hopefully being the best influence for my kids. But it also means that some of my greatest influential decisions with my kids is letting them taste the consequences of their choices. Letting them be exposed to things out in the world and then walking with them as they suffer through that. Again I'm am not going to let a 2 year old get hit by a car, but a 12 year old hopefully, I will have worked well enough, instructing them along the way, in a very calm way so that he can be out in the street by himself. That's my job, is to prepare my kids for life, not to protect them from it and its not to tell them how proud of them I am. Because it's all about you getting dad's approval, no it's not. It's not about me. And that's the biggest struggle about parenting is we think these kids are extensions of ourselves and so thus they validate us by how the behave. We're responsible for how they think, how they feel, how they walk, how they talk, and so we work hard to make sure they do all the right things in all the right ways so that we then can feel validated and say you know what, I'm a good parent. It is and I'm going to tell you the truth, it is not about how your kids behave that validates you as parent. It's about how you behave, regardless of how your kids behave because my guess is you already know that kids are going to act like what? Kids. A 2 year old is going to act like what? A 2 year old. A 16 year old is going to act like what? A 2 year old. The question is, how old are you going to act? How old am I going to act? And are my choices going to come out principles or are they going to come out my fears. Part of being a grown up is recognizing, I'm going to have anxiety. The older I get, probably the more anxiety's going to happen because all relationships produce anxiety and I as I grow older I'm going to have more relationships, more complex relationships. More people that matter to me. That means it's going to get a little more anxious so I now have a choice, am I going to continue to say yes to all that anxiety or am I going to rise above it and become a principle leader. First leading myself and how I behave. Then leading my children, leading my family in to the world so that my kids can coexist with eternal strength and integrity. I want to help you become a parent of integrity. (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK, that's (800) 972-8255. You're listening to NewsTalk AM750WSB.

[New York Times Best Selling Author and creator of the ScreamFree relationship revolution, Hal Runkel on NewsTalk AM750WSB]

Hal: We are here to bring you a new-found calm into your stress-filled life and helping you create the relationships you've always wanted. It's 35 minutes past the hour here on ScreamFree Radio. I'm your occasionally ScreamFree host, Hal Runkel and I'll tell you it's hard for me to stay ScreamFree when hearing of the abusive situations happening in Texas at the Yearning for Zion Ranch. It is hard for me to hear about stories of abuse. Stories of children being forced to marry men twice their age and they'll be the third wife of that husband. It is difficult for me to stay ScreamFree. What I want to do is preach judgment. What I want to do is say that is wrong. Not just is different from me, that it's wrong. There are times for that absolutely, but my job is to help the world calm down and grow up. That's what I have devoted my life to. That we're able to handle any crisis, the most important crisies in our lives, in the world at large in ways that actually end up being productive. ScreamFree is ultimately about responding in a way that is different from the way you have been acted upon. My kids are doing this, if only these kids would respect me more. If only these kids would obey me more then I can be the parent I always wanted to be. Not realizing that just by saying that you have placed all the leadership in their hands. The leadership over you, over your emotions over your choices, are now in the hands of the least mature members of the family because you said, "if only." If only are the words that start the weak-filled sentences. If only these kids. If only these my spouse. If only my employer. If only my president. If only the Middle East. As long as I continue to say if only and it's so tempting to say. As long as I do that though then I'm at the mercy of those people and I'm putting the control over my life into their hands. What I want to help you do is gt back control of your life. This is difficult. It takes bold decisions. Saying, no matter how my kids act toward me I'm still in control of me. (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK. My job is to help you become a ScreamFree leader of your family and this requires courage. It requires making decisions based on principle rather than making decisions based on fear because it is easy, far to easy to act out of fear. Far to easy and it's just a (?). Look if I didn't, if I didn't protect my kids then who knows what would happen. If I didn't restrict their freedom, restrict their freedom, restrict their freedom. If I didn't air on the side of too much restriction then who knows what could happen. Who knows what could happen. I'm not the only one in the studio. I am blessed to have the director of content at ScreamFree.com, where you can learn about all things ScreamFree. You can begin to take the first steps toward you starting a relationship revolution in your life. And the director of our content is Jenny Runkel and also happens to be the bride of mine of 15 years, almost 15 years. She may not let it get that far, but we face decisions everyday as parents and we don't always agree. Even though yes I have the New York Times best selling book that says I'm right. She still finds the courage to disagree with me. And when she hears me talk the way I'm talking right now, sometimes she can offer me a good wise perspective. Maybe its a more female perspective, but I think it comes from some men as well. That my job, look if I'm going to air its going to be on the side of letting my kids experience too much.

Jenny: Right and we have these conversations at our house all the time. In theory I agree. I agree that we want them to learn from their experiences, we want them to learn from their consequences and let their consequences be a teacher. And I don't know if it's a mother bear thing or if it's a pressure from what I feel from society. I'm getting judged more than maybe a dad is. Dad's can have these kind of dirty, rag-a-muffin looking kids and it's not really a big deal, but if a mom goes out with them we get looks. I don't know how much of that is.

Hal: Double standard, absolutely.

Jenny: But I do tend to push back on being a little more instructive, I guess with the kids. It's my job to train them. I know that it's not my job to get them to do anything although a lot of our people who write in aren't there yet. And I'm going to get to one of those questions in a second. But I firmly believe that, but do struggle sometimes that it's my job to teach them how to do these things on their own and that's where I get in kind of this weird gray area of how do I teach them without coming across as dictating. I don't want to be permissive. I don't want to be hands off, but I don't want to be a dictator in my home and I do struggle to find that middle way even though I write about this every single day and talk about it.

Hal: And that balance perspective it's the reason why I don't tell people specifically what to do as parents is because I don't have your kids.

Jenny: But you have mine.

Hal: I do have yours, but I try my best not to tell you how to parent when you're with our kids. Even though I'm right, try not to tell you exactly how to parent out kids.

Jenny: I hope they're not listening.

Hal: But here's the deal, yes I want to instruct our kids and I think I do. I try to quite a bit, but the difficulty comes, especially as they get older, is so often we're trying to instruct them when they have not sought us out for that instruction. And then it becomes this task, this test that am I going to push through their objections and teach them anyway. And then it becomes this unsolicited advice and then I complain because they haven't asked me for help, but I clearly see that they need help and so now I've tried to intervene, which clearly is going to be helpful for them, but they're now pushing back on it. It is a constant challenge to figure out, alright how instructive do I want to be with my children and yet how much do I want to simply lead them onto challenging situations.

Jenny: I want to bring this up, that you mentioned earlier, on the website that I am the director of content and I help to run the forum that we have, where parents can write in about all sorts of questions that they have.

Hal: From all over the world.

Jenny: Yeah, we get questions from all over and I came across one that I thought was interesting. It's from a home-school mom, this kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier, she says, "I guess I come from a family of you do this or else. It's my way or the highway. So I guess I always thought it was my responsibility to get my children to act the way they should and if they didn't then I was a bad parent. So, from my understanding of your material that's bad, but my question is 'how do you then make them do the right thing?'" and she gives and example she says, "I home-school my middle child hates math or anything that requires more than 10 minutes of effort, but I can't just say, 'Oh well, you have to choose whether or not you do the math.' I'm so tired of the daily battle, what do I do?"

Hal: Right, why does he not get to choose whether or not he does the math?

Jenny: That's why I don't home-school my kids. I don't know, I would not want to have to answer that question, but I)

Hal: But we have to if you think about it. Is it our kid's choice to do their homework? Do they have a choice about doing their homework?

Jenny: Yes.

Hal: Well of course they do.

Jenny: Yes, I want to say no.

Hal: I know that they have to do it, but that means I'm going to have to sit down with them and make them do it. Meaning take it to the logical exention, I have to sit down, put the pencil in their hand and trace the numbers with them as they do that math homework.

Jenny: And the bigger they get the harder that is to do.

Hal: Exactly.

Jenny: Used to be so simple.

Hal: See, I'm not giving them the choice to do their homework. They have that choice. There's nothing I can do about that if I want actually them to do it, but the truth is that parents, we don't want our kids to do their homework. We want our kids to want to do their homework.

Jenny: Okay, so this woman would say she doesn't want her child to do math, she wants him to want to do .

Hal: And that we cannot force.

Jenny: So just throw your hands up in the air and teach them English which is better anyway.

Hal: No, do not throw your hands in the air. Give them structure to make decisions, clear consequences for their choices. Help them. Let them know your available to help them with organization, with particular problem, but appreciate respect the freedom they have to own this homework as theirs. It is their homework and we've got Dr. George in Dallas.

Dr. George: Yes, how are you today?

Hal: Welcome to the program. How are you sir?

Dr. George: I'm fine. I'm a grandparent. My wife and I we raised three children.

Hal: Three? Congratulations.

Dr. George: And it was anything but ScreamFree. I guess there we're a lot of trying moments. We had 2 girls. Oldest was a girl, youngest was a girl and the middle child was a boy. The boy seemed to be on auto-pilot almost all the time. He just made good grades. Even when he got older he had a part-time job, did well in school later on etc. etc. etc. The girls were a challenge a nano-second. We just always had trouble with school work and work work and lots of things, but anyway to make a long story short. They all ended up doing very well as people. They're now middle-aged adults.

Hal: And they're doing well?

Dr. George: And they're doing extremely well and a lot of values that we were afraid we hadn't instilled in them, a lot of the things that we wanted them to believe and understand.

Hal: They ended up with somehow.

Dr. George: They ended up wit even though for quite sometime, a period of about 10 years, you couldn't tell it. And I now have 6 grandchildren and the oldest one is 13. And he visits me over Spring Break and he looks strikingly like his father and he's also going through adolescent rebellion really bad right now. And he acted really, really, really nasty just exactly like his father did, only it was that his father did at like 15 or 16.

Hal: And what perspective we're you able to offer to your son, who's dealing with your grandson?

Dr. George: Well we calmly discussed it after the week and I've always been cloase to this child. I mean he and I have just been like perfect together.

Hal: You calmly discussed it?

Dr. George: Yeah, but it was a nightmare, the week was a nighmare that he was just so rebellious and nasty and my son and I said how we're going to dicuss it at the end of the week and he said he's that way with everybody. He won't listen to anybody. He's got an attitude about everything and my son is extremely frustrated and I don't think that there's anyway to punish or disipline this out of the boy.

Hal: I totally agree with that perspective and Dr. George I thank you for the call and I'm going to continue to take that on because you're absolutely right. This is not about disciplining our children out of being children. When we hook up after the break we're going to talk about what is the best perspective. What is the best approach when you've got a kid who continuously and amazingly defies all of your efforts to change him. (404) 872-0750 or (800) WSB-TALK, that's (800) 972-8255. You are listening to ScreamFreeRadio here on NewsTalk AM750WSB.

[He's calming the world one relationship at a time. Now back to ScreamFree Radio with Hal Runkel on NewsTalk 750WSB]

Hal: Bringing you a new-found calm into your stress-filled lives, helping you to create the relationships you've always wanted. Kids are not to be abjects of our control. Previous caller was lamenting that his 13 year old grandson was rebellious against anything and anyone and was commenting that the boy's father is completely exasterbated. Well, there's a reason why. We cannot focus all out attention and energy on trying to get our kids to change because that will naturally encourage them to fight against every effort we're making. Earlier in the show we talked about being proud of our children and how hanging that out there as a carrot on a stick, that if you do this, if you do well at this, if you do well at sports, if you do well at school, if you perform well, if your nice in public then I will then grant you this wonderful carrot that I'm proud of you. We hang that out there. Well now we're talking about efforts to push our kids into behavior, new behaviors. Now you're going to be respectful young man. You're going to stop being rebellious. So we're pushing them and pushing them from behind and of course they're pushing back against us or we're leading them with a carrot on a stick. Trying to get them to change in order to get our approval, but we can't do that. We can't push them from behind or put a carrot on a stick and keep treating them like a donkey and then be surprised when they act like a jackass. And of course they're acting that way because we're treating them that way. This is not about changing our kids. So parenting is not about controlling your children into behaving a certain way. It is about leadership and the best way that you lead is through controlling your own behavior and then the very matter of fact with your children about life and not standing toe to toe with them saying that your going to learn this from me so that when you make these choices your going to start making better choices and when you do that your not only going to make better choices your going to admit that I was right and so you're going to admit thereby that you're wrong. And I'm again going to get validation from that. Feel that I'm doing a good job as a parent because you have now been defeated from your bad behavior. No it's not standing toe to toe and making them behave differently. It's standing shoulder to shoulder with our children and saying you know what sounds like you're having a really tough time being 13. It's been a long time since I been 13 my guess is it's just as difficult for you as it was for me, maybe even more so and what I want you to know is that I've probably made it even harder. I probably made it more difficult by trying to get you to behave certain ways and I'm sorry. I'm sorry for doing that. What I want to do as a parent is to show you what your choices are and show you the consequences of each of those choices. Now I also do want to protect you from making really bad choices and I'm going to try my best to do that, but I'm never going to rob you of you individuality. Your capability of making some choices because I'm trying to prepare you, not for a life with me. I'm trying to prepare you for a life without me because that's where your headed. And that's the whole goal, I think, is to prepare our kids for a life without us and this takes guts. It takes incredible courage. We have to rise above the anxiety every situation we face with our kids and we have to rise above that anxiety and even in the midst of it, staying connected to our kids and make choices out of our principles. That's the essences of being ScreamFree. Saying no matter what is going on I'm still in control of my behavior. And what happens is, as you do that with your children, as you do that with your spouse, as you do that in your work place, change happens. Revolution happens. The goal of ScreamFree radio is to give you a new-found calm into your stress-filled life, helping you to create the relationships you've always wanted. We're going to be back next week. Every Sunday, 2 to 4PM. Next week ScreamFree radio. Email me at AskHal at ScreamFree Dot Com. Send in your relationship questions. My job is to help create world peace one relationship at a time and with that I absolutely cherish the great Mother Theresa quote that if you want to work for world peace, there's one thing you can do right now. Go home and love your family. You've been listening to NewsTalk AM750 WSB. See you next week.

Back to Radio Overview Page